To Upload or Not To Upload
If we could take you, take your essence, upload it to a computer system, and put it in a synthetic replica body, would you do it? Never mind the process, we’ll get to that later, let’s start from whether you’d even want to or not. So let me give you a plausible reason to answer in the affirmative. You’re sick with cancer and going to die, but we can put you in a different body, the same body, but without the cancer. You’ve been horribly burned in an accident, scared from head to toe, but we can build this new body for you and put you in it and you’ll be beautiful again (or at least the same old ugly you). You’re old and frail and dying, but we can build you another body, maybe even a younger body if you want, that won’t have the frailties of your current one. In fact, in all these situations we can dream up any incentive you might desire; you’ll be stronger, faster, you won’t age, you can be better looking, whatever you can think of. Would you do it?
The question you should be asking yourself if presented with this offer is, “would that person be me?” Obviously, if the answer to that question is “no”, most sane individuals would justifiably refuse the offer. For me to want to go through with this thing, I’d have to be sure that this new being really would be me. And to do that, we need to first figure out what exactly it is that makes you up as a person. And what possible changes you could undergo that would cause something to cease to be you. So why don’t we start by going over some common arguments made about what makes us a person, and see if they hold water.
“We are the physical form that makes us up”
This form of argument is the easiest to discard. As we go through life we all change physically over time. And yet as we change physically, few would argue that these changes make you a different person. Each and every one of us grows from a small child to an adult and slowly becomes more and more frail as time goes by. Even as a relatively static looking adult, you might dye your hair (or lose it) or get a nose job, work out and develop muscles, or stop exercising all together and gain 50 pounds. When you see this you think, “man, Charlie really let himself go,” not, “who is this new person with more weight and a vague resemblance to Charlie?” You might even lose your arm in a freak accident or suffer some other profound physical change. And yet through all of these physical changes, we would say that it is one and the same person that exists at any of these moments, it is you that undergoes these changes. We consider the baby in the stroller and, many years later, the adult with a baby of their own as the same person. And so it’s certainly not outward appearance or physical make up that defines us as individuals. Many would say there is something more that persists over time, and it is this essence that persists over time that allows us to make the connection between disparate physical appearances. Which is the second argument for personhood:
“I am my thoughts and behavior and personality”
But we also each go through constant personality and behavior changes. John is a very trusting individual. Then John gets involved in a series of romantic relationships where his partner cheats on him and lies to him. After years of these types of relationships John is now much wearier and in general less trusting of those around him. His personality has changed, but no one would say that this person is no longer John. Or let’s take Sally. Sally is a very selfish individual, but after meeting a group of very kind hearted and compassionate friends, she slowly over time becomes a more caring and selfless person. This is not a different person right? It’s still Sally. As we go through life and experience the world and learn, we often have significant changes in our values and thus in our day to day behavior. These are not just minor changes in preferences (i.e. – I used to like vanilla ice cream, now I like strawberry), these are full fledged personality changes, changes that dictate not only the way you behave, but even the very thoughts that you think. From the rebellious teenage slacker to the corporate lawyer, a fundamental personality change has occurred, but the individual has remained the same.
“I am the matter that makes up this body”
You might at this point say, “well, this is the nature of life, we grow, we change, but it is this physical being that I call (insert your name here) that stays consistent over time.” But this argument is problematic. While to any outside observer your physical body looks relatively the same over time (besides these gradual changes I spoke of above), the stuff that you’re made of is actually always constantly changing. Individual cells in your body are constantly dying while others are being created to take their place. What makes up your heart or your liver or your skin is a collection of cells that function in certain specific ways, any one cell may die at any time and the whole unit remains. So take your heart now, and take it a few months from now, and the two hearts will not be made up of the same physical matter at all! You literally have a new body hundreds of times over in your life.
This is true for all the cells in your body except your neurons, which for the most part survive for life. “AHA!” you say, your neurons are what make up your thoughts, what lead to your sense of self and your conscious experience, and these are solid and consistent! In one way this is true. But in another sense, far from. An individual neuron may persist as a distinct cell for a longer period of time…true, but the molecules that make it up are constantly being replaced. The persistence of a neuron over time is rather like the persistence of a baseball team over time. The New York Yankees remain the New York Yankees, whether Babe Ruth, Don Mattingly, or Dereck Jeter happen to be playing for them at the moment. No one player from the 1970 New York Yankees team might still be active, and yet we still think of the team as the same team. Because it is the function of the team that defines it. The Yankees are the team called the Yankees that plays baseball out of New York. No matter who the players are, who the coach is, what their uniforms look like, and even what stadium they play in. And the reason we believe this is because there is a connection, a flow over time that connects every moment in time of Yankeeness, to the next moment in time of Yankeeness. It is the pattern that we call Yankees that persists over time. The same is true for your neurons, and what’s more, the same is true for you, but I’m jumping ahead of myself here.
“It is my memories that make up who I am”
You might want to use this notion of the flow over time to jump to the conclusion that it’s memories that make up who we are, since our memories in a sense contain that flow within them. But this would be an oversimplification. What about implicit memories? What about events that have happened to you in your life that affected your psychology and neurophysiology, that have in a sense “made you who you are today”, but which you have forgotten, which you don’t have explicit access to anymore? Think about the many formative experiences we went through as children which we don’t remember as adults. What about people who have neurological conditions and either lost all their old memories, or can’t form new memories, or both? Do they not have selves? Or are they different selves? Are you a different person every time you form a new memory or forget an old one? So while memories, and your ability to bring them to the forefront of your consciousness, play an important role in your sense of self, it is not the memories themselves that define you. Rather, memories are the conscious remnants of (some subset of) the causal interactions that you engaged in, of which you are the result.
What we’ve done is disprove a theory that says that what makes you up as a person is the physical material you are made of. But we’ve done more than that. We’ve come to the conclusion that you can change your physical appearance, your mental states and behavioral patterns, your memories, and even the very particles you are made of and still be you. The reason for all of this seems to be that we take the continuity of self to be important above all. You are a pattern that persists over time, and each moment of that existence is tied to each previous moment in a chain of connections.
If this is the case though, let’s take this idea to its logical conclusion. If someone gets a lung transparent or a heart transplant we would never say they were a different person, right? What if we put in a synthetic heart or lung? Still the same person right? What about a synthetic hand (Bob’s was amputed in the war, the government just hooked him up with a sweet new bionic one). Larry was going blind, we put in some new state of the art synthetic eyeballs. Melissa has been deaf but just got herself a snazzy new cochlear implant. These changes may strike us as odd or unnatural, but not many of us would stop being friends with Melissa, just because she had a “fake ear”. What if this all happened to one person? What if, piece by piece, one limb or organ at a time, we replaced every part of you. But left your brain intact. Given what we’ve said above, no one would have any reason to state this is not you, correct? Your experience has been one continuous experience, and the stuff that makes up your thoughts and sense of self hasn’t changed.
What if we went further? What if we took one little neuron, one neuron out of billions, and replaced it with a synthetic unit that served the same function. What if I did this one at a time, until there were no original neurons anymore. Are you still you? Think about this question, it’s an important one. At no point was there a discontinuity of your consciousness self. Does it make a difference that every part of you is inorganic? Is that change any different from the fact that your molecules are constantly changing? If, what started was you when you had all your neurons, but ended up with a different person when they were all changed, you have to answer the question of when did this new person cease to be you? Was it when the last real neuron was changed? The first? Somewhere in between? Was there one point where the number of different neurons become such that the person that used to be you now was changed?
If the person at the end of this process is still you, then you have to ask yourself, would there be any difference if instead of doing this gradually, we just replaced the whole brain at once, with a functionally equivalent brain? “Yes there is!” you might say. “This complete replacement breaks the continuity we talked about earlier! This causes a discontinuity, and thus can’t be you.” But lets think about this more deeply. When we talk about continuity, we’re talking about continuity from one physical state to the next. That State A directly leads up to and causes State B and State B directly leads up to and causes State C. Is continuity in time necessary for this? Every night you go to sleep and your consciousness shuts down, and every morning you wake up and feel like the same person. But there’s been an 8 hour lapse in time, so what makes this new you the same as the old you? It’s the continuity of the pattern that matters, regardless of whether there was a break or not in time. Imagine technology has advanced to the point where mid thought, we can freeze you, and years later thaw you out. You are physically exactly the same, and there has been no discontinuity in your brain function or consciousness (even more so than the sleep example, as there is literally no brain function in the frozen state). Neurons that were in the middle of firing, continue to fire. Electrical and chemical reactions continue from the exact point they stopped at. You’d be hard pressed to argue this is a different person from before, just because there has been a discontinuity of experience in time.
So imagine we freeze you, and THEN replace your brain. Then unfreeze you. The replacement brain is in the exact same state as the original brain.
You may have all sorts of uneasy feelings about the conclusions we’ve come to, but without any obvious contradictions, we’re going to move forward with this thought experiment. So you have no more arguments, we can take the pattern of neuronal firing that makes you up as a person, and put it in a new synthetic body. So let’s do it, what’s stopping us?
Let’s take a second and actually picture how this process would work. We sit you in a chair and hook you up to all sorts of futurist equipment. In another chair is a synthetic body replica of you, waiting to interface with your brain to download your specific brain pattern. The two of you are connected by a machine that will facilitate this transfer. You turn the machine on, and poof, the synthetic body is now you! But wait, we forgot about something really crucial! YOU are still sitting in your chair, looking at this new synthetic body, what gives! What gives is that there are now two yous, both of which think they are you, one of whom happens to be in a different chair from where he was a second ago. But this doesn’t help you out. Let’s call you Alpha, the organic person who went in to get transferred to a new and better body. You are still Alpha. You’re still old or frail or sick with cancer or whatever thing happened to be ailing you. And while Person B (Beta), a person who thinks and feels exactly like you, is ecstatic to be in their new body, Beta is not you. Beta is a copy. It may look and act exactly like you, but they are not you.
This is the common argument made at this point, and while on one level of analysis it’s absolutely right and needs to be considered (we’ll get to this soon), I also want to argue that it misses the point of everything else I’ve argued up until this point. It’s neglecting the argument we’ve laid out to think of one as the original and the other as the copy, since this is the old way of thinking, where what mattered was the physical stuff you were made of. But if what makes you you, is actually the functional pattern over time, then “me” is just the feeling associated with a pattern of neuronal firing (or with the sum total of biological interactive processes that make up the organism we call “you”, if you’re uncomfortable with solely explaining consciousness as the result of neuronal firing). Both Alpha and Beta have the distinct sense that they are me. The only telling of which is classically right and classically wrong is the knowledge of which has an original body. But what if the technology has been so advanced that the new body is actually indistinguishable by even the best of science from the original? Inside and out, cell by cell. Further, what if after making the consciousness upload to the new body, both bodies were put to sleep, removed from their chairs and in a carefully crafted double blind set up, taken to another room where not a single person knew which was which. Both persons are then woken up at a later time. Which is you? And does it even matter at this point? Both feel like you, act like you, and believe they are you. Ten minutes ago there was one you, now there are two yous.
And here we get to the crux of the whole situation, and we realize a startling truth that arises when considering the continuation of the self over time. If what makes you you is the pattern of neuronal firing at any given moment (or functional pattern or configuration of constituent molecules in your body if you’d rather), and that pattern can be paused or stopped and restarted without a change in you, and further, that pattern can exist in multiple instances and all be correct in believing they are you, we have to seriously consider the idea that there really is no you at all that continues. The same sense of dread you have over admitting that a synthetic copy of you is actually you should be felt whenever you consider whether you from 10 years ago is the same person as the you today, whether the you of this moment is even the same you as a moment ago. If the synthetic you is just a copy, then you right now are just a slightly altered copy of yourself from a moment ago, ad infenitum. This sense that you are you is just the subjective experience of your current pattern of neuronal firing, one that happens to incorporate a set of beliefs, beliefs that we call memories, into its sense of self. In a sense, you only really exist in the present subjective moment, and the subjective experience in the next moment that you are somehow the same person, is just that, an experience, a feeling, a convenient fiction. This is one possible interpretive path we can go down. There’s a more optimistic version though. Which is that we accept not that the self is an illusion, but rather, that all our common conceptions of what a self is, and what allows a person to continue to exist over time, are illusory.
If we can accept that the you of ten years ago is the same person today, if we accept that your subjective sense of existence and continuity over time is something worth caring about, then the question of whether to upload is easy, and may surprise you. Yes, of course upload. But with certain caveats. If you’re uploading to a new body that will be stronger or healthier, you want to make absolutely sure that your old body and your new body will never be conscious at the same time! You want the transfer made while you are asleep, and once the transfer is successfully accomplished, destroy the old body immediately. This is the only way to ensure that when the new body is turned on (wakes up), that there is a fluid continuity of self, and there is no one left to argue otherwise. Harsh maybe…but we’re talking about self preservation here.
37 Responses
6:07 pm
You lost me at the Alpha and Beta problem. If I’m Alpha, and I perfectly copy my consciousness into Beta and then destroy Alpha, I’M DEAD. Alpha is consigned to oblivion. From Alpha’s perspective, it hardly matters that Beta — a perfect, indistinguishable copy — gets to continue my life. There is certainly a discontinuity in Alpha’s consciousness, and it’s permanent.
My dread doesn’t stem from the fact that Beta would be me. My dread stems from the fact that Alpha inevitably dies — whether of of disease, old age, or termination after forking.
A fork is not the immortality I’m looking for.
6:25 pm
“it hardly matters that Beta — a perfect, indistinguishable copy — gets to continue MY life.”
Emphasis mine. What is it that you define as your life? What is it that you define as you? The argument that I try to make in that essay is that YOU is just a feeling associated with a functional interactive pattern of neuronal firing. Copy the pattern and you copy yourself. YOU feel tied to your body and thoughts and feel that this copy wouldn’t be you, but rather just a copy. But the conclusion that I come to is that this is faulty way to be view the self. Beta is a copy of alpha in the same exact sense that you AlphaT1 is a copy of AlphaT0. And AlphaT2 is a copy of AlphaT1.
My argument is that Beta would feel as much YOU as you do. Your life IS Beta’s life. Now, obviously, there is still the Alpha problem. You’re right that while Beta might go on being perfectly happy living out the rest of its life thinking it’s you, the Alpha you would die and would go through the subjective experience of dying. This is no good and would ruin the whole point of the upload. Which is why I propose the extreme measure of destroying Alpha (while Alpha is not conscious) and then “waking up” Beta. The continuity would be complete and YOU, the functional interactive pattern that makes up your sense of self, would go on existing feeling exactly like YOU.
This is why I added the bit at the end about the double blind set up. If no one, not any scientist, and not even you (either of you) can tell the difference, then does the difference really matter?
6:32 pm
Yes, it does. It matters a great deal to Alpha, who never wakes up. There is absolutely a discontinuity in his consciousness — it ends.
An indistinguishable copy is still a copy. Beta is in no way less than Alpha, but Beta is not Alpha. If both remained alive they would subsequently have different experiences and be changed by them.
This is what separates forking from achieving what I consider true immortality — the immortality of a specific instance.
10:25 pm
“Yes, it does. It matters a great deal to Alpha, who never wakes up. ”
Actually…I would argue it could only possibly matter to Alpha if he DOES wake up. By definition it can’t matter otherwise. 🙂
I agree 100% that if both remain alive they would subsequently have different experiences and for all intents and purposes after T0 be different people. But I am arguing that at T0, they are the same.
Let me ask you this, because I agree with you that the point at which I would lose most people is the Alpha and Beta argument. Did you find the argument up until that point persuasive? If so, what is it that you find fundamentally different about what follows?
I touched on this in my first reply, but implicit in the way you even formulated the question about “my life” is this sort of presupposition that “you” are somehow the owner of this brain and body. That you “have” a self. When I would say that you “are” a self (or you are the subjective experience of a self). Replicating that IS replicating you. Under this view the specific instance is not what’s important, rather the pattern.
Thanks for commenting btw Raja!
9:48 am
There is actually a Farscape episode that contains exactly this scenario. A perfect copy of “Crichton” ends up existing in tandem with the original Crichton. Both have the same set of memories, same self awareness and same identity, prefferences etc. founded on the same nature and nurture. Both evolve slightly differently but fundamentally make similiar decisions etc. To the rest of the world they are almost indistinguishable and they share a very personal bond in that they are the same person. But they are also completely seperate people who exist as two completely seperate people. The significance in that fiction is focused mainly on the pros and cons from the perspective of the individual and the difficulty and benefits others derive from the relationships they build with the similiar but slightly different versions of the same person.
In my mind this is a simililar question to cloning. If it seems beneficial to undermine the singularity of the individual, what is the end goal. To preserve the individual by backing it up whether it be for parts or in its entirety in the event of other catastrophe? to preserve the individual’s knowledge for posterity? In reality isnt the most basic thing that really matters in the entire universe to a human being their identity perspective? – once the instance of the idividual dies there is nothing left of importance to that instance of the individual.
10:28 am
I’ve never watched Farscape, though I know you’ve told me too, but it’s examples like this why I’ve always loved (good) science fiction. It is the ability of science fiction to take legitimate and important, yet currently theoretical, issues facing us and put them in a literal environment. The philosophical thought experiment made real. Exploring difficult concepts through story is almost always more entertaining (if not quite as exhaustive) than classical modes of knowledge formation.
A few comments, that aren’t really criticisms, but points worth mentioning.
1) Cloning doesn’t inherently undermine the singularity of the individual as what are twins but genetic clones?
2) Cloning may actually not be the word you’re looking for in this situation? Cloning wouldn’t preserve an individual’s knowledge, just their genetic information. Copying would be a more apt term, but I’m not sure I like that one either. I think we need to create a new term to describe this process. Then we need to patent it for when society and technology catch up!
1:07 pm
“Actually…I would argue it could only possibly matter to Alpha if he DOES wake up. By definition it can’t matter otherwise.”
I disagree completely. I don’t go to sleep every night on the assumption that I’ll never wake up. If I were infirm and that were a distinct possibility, I would be terrified of going to sleep.
To be honest, the biggest reason I don’t find your argument at all persuasive is that I don’t want to die. What do I care if a perfect indistinguishable instance of me lives on and no one else can tell the difference? If I was very concerned affecting the world after I died I would be a lot more interested in having children. What matters to me is that the instance of me that exists currently will have ceased to exist. That is exactly what I want to avoid and it’s exactly what your Alpha/Beta example doesn’t avoid.
Which means that to me, it isn’t immortality, it’s forking.
There is another obvious way in which they are not the same: they cannot exist simultaneously in the same place. Beta’s body has to be created in a place that is not occupied by Alpha’s body, since by definition that space is occupied by Alpha. In order for the swap to occur, there still have to be two instances of me at or just before T0. You could extend the argument to suggest that the swap might be done instantaneously, but at that point you’re already so far beyond the realm of what will ever be physically possible that it’s really a semantic argument. And semantics aren’t going to convince me that forking is true immortality. 😛
True immortality means that all instances of me can live forever.
As to the argument to that point, it started to become less compelling when you got to neurons and equated gradual turnover of molecules to complete turnover of neurons and then to complete brain replacement. I was willing to go along for the ride to see where it ended up, since it was clearly a thought experiment, but I don’t actually accept that line of reasoning.
More importantly, what do you think about forking? Why should we kill Alpha when Beta is created? I’m not sure that simply avoiding confusion is a sufficient reason.
1:53 pm
“I disagree completely. I don’t go to sleep every night on the assumption that I’ll never wake up. If I were infirm and that were a distinct possibility, I would be terrified of going to sleep.”
Well, that was mostly a joke. The point being, if you died or were killed in your sleep, by definition you couldn’t care about it after the fact. Obviously you care about whether you wake up “before” you go to sleep! This relates to the conversation and the post in the sense that yes, there is no rational reason for Alpha to go to sleep knowing he will be killed and some other copy of him Beta will wake up the next morning. BUT, the point of my argument is that what I believe will happen is that Alpha will go to sleep and wake up the next morning feeling no different whatsoever. Except the “instance” as you have been putting it that wakes up is not really Alpha in the physical sense, but rather Beta. The broader point of my post is that while the instance can be viewed as Beta, the self that exists is in every way possible Alpha. Because I don’t view the self as an instance, but a process. The label of Alpha or Beta is a false distinction, they are YOU. I equated this to the fact that there is not a cell in your body that persists as an “instance”. It is the processes that persist. In this sense, no instance of you ever has a continual existence. The instance of your right now is just a copy of some instance of you in the past, made up of different stuff and with some extra amount of experience piled on.
Your point about the instances not being able to exist in the same space is of course valid. And yes, at our before T0 two instances exist. I would argue that, if at T0, where there are currently two instances, if both instances are asleep or in some sort non-conscious induced state, the possible differences in these two instances is so marginal as to not be significant. It is only the moment those instances start interacting with the world at Tbootup that their experience, and thus their selves can fork. This is why I argue that both should never be conscious at the same time. Because of course, at that point Alpha has no reason to end his life, because it’ll just be over, no immortality as you put it.
This is why I don’t find your forking argument convincing. But, let me back up for a second. It’s not that we “should” kill Alpha when Beta is created. It’s worth mentioning that this is not an evil mad scientist thought experiment where we are kidnapping people, making copies of them, and killing the originals. The reason to destroy Alpha when Beta is created would only be because that is what Alpha wished. That if immortality (or at the very least body transfer) is what Alpha wants, then the process must necessarily involve this transfer to a different instance as you put it. The forking problem is only a problem as you say, if both instances are conscious together. But each instance is you in every way that an instance can be.
Consider the idea of teleportation in science fiction literature. Do you think this would ever be a possibility? How would it work though? Could there ever be a way to send your matter from one location to another? Or would teleportation be a case of recreating you, molecule by molecule, at the other end. In essence making a copy and recreating that pattern at the other end.
I don’t know if we’re going to reach a consensus on this. You view the self as an “instance”. I view it as a “process”. This essay was an attempt to put forth that argument…obviously it was not very persuasive in your case! I would ask you though to think about why you consider the instance so important.
6:25 pm
My biggest problem with your switch is that I don’t think you actually get around the discontinuity issue. You are creating an identical consciousness in a second body, not transferring consciousness from one body to the other. Those two things are materially different, as summed up wonderfully in this comic:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1879#comic
Sure, it’s pat and a bit smug, but I don’t think there’s any way to get past the fact that two instances of the same self are materially different, even if the only distinction is that one of them was created before the other.
Your “process” approach doesn’t work for me because it implies a separation from the underlying “hardware” that I don’t think exists.
“Consider the idea of teleportation in science fiction literature. Do you think this would ever be a possibility?”
No. “Teleportation” could be either a destructive fork or a non-destructive fork. In the former case, the instance who steps into the teleportation device dies instantly and an exact copy is created at the other end. It sounds like that wouldn’t be a problem for you, since it would just be a faster version of your Alpha-Beta switch, but I would never step into such a device unless it was a duplicator, not a teleporter.
I’d love to believe that some form of actual transfer could occur and that I could step into a device and reappear somewhere else entirely. That would be awesome. But I think it would actually be a new instance appearing and my current instance would never experience anything again. That’s a showstopping hangup for me — like I said earlier, the reason I’m so hung up on instances is that I’m very attached to my current instance and I have no wish to consign it to oblivion. I don’t care if other instances of me can live on and continue to duplicate themselves.
I don’t see us coming to agreement, but I enjoyed reading the essay (and other posts!) and I’ve enjoyed this discussion. On a related note, you might want to check out Greg Egan’s latest book, Zendegi — it’s about people “proxying” themselves by creating AIs that replicate their personalities. I haven’t read it yet, but I’ll be picking it up shortly. 🙂
12:29 pm
“Your “process” approach doesn’t work for me because it implies a separation from the underlying “hardware” that I don’t think exists.”
Well, I think it’s a bit soon to make that proclamation. I think the underlying hardware is extremely important, as opposed to those who think it’s the software only. That’s because the software and the hardware have an intertwined relationship. And even the hardware itself interacts in integral ways. To replicate we’d not only have to create the functional equivalent of the neurons and connections, but the functional equivalent of the neurotransmitters. We’d have to account for new cutting edge data that even questions some of the fundamentals of the neuron doctrine, as we’ve seen that oscillating and resonating neurons can affect other neurons with which they are not synaptically connected to. I don’t consider this an easy task. But I do think that in theory, the entire holistic process could be replicated, and if every bit of it was accounted for, then yes, I think the interplay of hardware and software could be instantiated in a different medium.
But that’s sort of a side note that still doesn’t address you problem with instances. I think I’m going to start calling you process denier. :p Thanks for the positive feedback! Hopefully as time goes on more people will engage in the comment area and keep the discussion lively.
5:51 pm
Continuity of self is an illusion perpetuated by the constant revision of memory by cognitive processes. I could go to sleep tonight, have the interconnectedness of memories and knowledge in this brain duplicated elsewhere, and have my body incinerated, and the “new me” would rewrite any glitches in continuity so it feels like nothing had happened. Something like this happens when I go to sleep, anyway. The modules of my mind that are typically in control loosen their grip on the reins, and the spotlight spins lazily over other daemons. In the morning, typically, the ruling faction takes control right back.
I am not the same person who inhabited what appeared to be this body 20 years ago. Splinters of that young man are here, fragments of him that have been preserved, repurposed into a new mosaic, juxtaposed with new experiences, ideas, quirks. Facing the ever-evolving nature of the self is, it seems to me, a very difficult part of what we might call enlightenment.
I’d very happily dump this present identity into a robotic body. That would permit it to continue growing, discarding the bits that keep it from understanding the truth about itself and the universe, accreting all sorts of novel wisdom and abilities.
I would not be saddened by the demise of the old David Bowles. Every day he dies, bit by bit, anyway.
4:41 pm
You and I have very similar points of view David. If I’m reading you correctly though I do think we may differ about some aspects dealing with the nature of consciousness. I don’t really subscribe to Dennet’s battling daemons hypothesis or the pandemonium hypothesis he drew from. Recently I think he’s gone on record espousing some version of global workspace, which gets us some of the way, but not the whole way. I find that Dennett is brilliant at pointing out errors in our current theories and shedding light on important issues, but I don’t find his alternative theory persuasive. More precisely, I feel he leaves a large hole in his explanation. Either because he sees it, and doesn’t think it needs to be explained, or because he doesn’t see it at all.
4:03 am
Greg what do you think?
susan schneider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7fN0xW8egc
10:09 am
I’ve read the essay that talk is based on. I’ve also communicated with Schneider various times in regards to graduate school. I really like what she does. Thanks for the link! I’ll give it a watch later and see if I have any thoughts of relevance.
6:00 pm
I tried to contact her but she never got back to me, but I’m not even a student anymore.
Apart from the general ‘its a copy’ argument, regarding the Ship of Theseus, I would have thought a time slice analysis and overlapping chains of material connection would be enough to argue it is the same entity. Whether it is made up of the same matter doesn’t really matter as long as there are chains of material connection.
BTW I have my own account that is neither psychological nor biological and shows there has been a misunderstanding of the ontological implications of brain swap, fission etc and says we aren’t ontologically persons at any stage 🙂 You’d have to contact me to discuss this as it hasn’t been published and probably won’t be in the short term.
11:20 pm
“Whether it is made up of the same matter doesn’t really matter as long as there are chains of material connection.”
I would say, “chains of causal connection”, but otherwise agree Simon.
I’d be interested in your thoughts. I’ll email you. Though, I wasn’t really attempting to argue for or against brain swap, but rather using the sci-fi setting to explore notions of the self.
12:07 am
Look forward to it.
I even have a Star Trek non teleporter analogy I think you will appreciate.
10:39 am
What would it be like to not know your name? What if your whole story was gone? There would still be awareness, perhaps even a concept of self. I think that, like creating god in our image, we make consciousness something strictly human. Why not an ant consciousness, a tree consciousness, a mountain consciousness.
just a little thought experiment.
9:54 pm
I don’t disagree with you that there would be a concept of self without a name or a story. That actually fits right into what my essay speaks about. Your sense of self arises from a pattern of neuronal firing. If that pattern doesn’t include a label to give yourself, or explicit memories about your past, it doesn’t change the fact that a pattern exists. And could conceivably be copied.
I don’t believe conscious is strictly human, though you jumped from a conversation about self to consciousness, and I don’t think they are one and the same. Consciousness is necessary for self, but not sufficient (you can have animals that are conscious, can have subjective experiences, but not a reflective sense of self such as we humans do) . Trees and mountains are not conscious because, first, they don’t have central nervous systems. But central nervous systems are themselves a necessary, though not sufficient component. I believe conscious is a graded phenomena, and I’d be hesitant to label *exactly* to what degree other animals have it. Beyond a central nervous system, there has to be some way for an organism to interact with it’s environment, and eventually to form representations of the environment, of their own states of being, etc…You might be interested in taking a look at this post: http://cognitivephilosophy.net/consciousness/i-sense-therefore-i-think/, which covers some issues surrounding these types of questions. I don’t really get into issues of representation in this blog because it’s sort of a nuanced area in cognitive science that takes a lot of background to set up. But basically, not any random organization of matter can lead to the emergence of consciousness, certain things have to be in place. rocks and trees don’t have those things.
1:58 pm
The thing about long writing is that if I don’t want to read it all, I can skip parts. However, with short writing, it is hard to see what wasn’t written.
“But I am arguing that at T0, they are the same.”
This implies some things I think you disagree with.
If it is okay to end Alpha while they’re not conscious, then it must always be okay to end a potential consciousness, just as long as they’re not an actual consciousness.
If Alpha goes to sleep, sound in the knowledge that they will wake up, and doesn’t, then Alpha doesn’t and never did care about their killing. But, if a sequence of events is wrong, it remains wrong even if next door Beta wakes up and thinks they’re Alpha. Similarly, a burglary is wrong even if in the middle I leave behind the actual cash value of everything I took.
Alternatively, you could mean that there’s only one consciousness, despite there being two causally disconnected bodies, in which case ending one of the bodies doesn’t end any potential consciousnesses.
2:16 pm
Neither of the two cases actually!
Alpha and Beta are two distinct consciousness’ (though at T0 they have the same exact content), but I say it’s okay to end Alpha, if and only if Alpha has given permission to do this and is aware it will happen. I am in no way arguing that it is okay to do this sort of thing without the consent of the agent it is being done to.
You’re getting into some slightly different topics of ethical theory. And while I agree with your points about the wrongness of burglary, I probably am not doing so for the same reasons (I tend to subscribe to virtue ethics, so the burglary was wrong because of what it tells us about the person who was committing it, not because the act itself is inherently wrong)
10:28 pm
Cool subject. I’m working on a si fi thriller that deals with mind transfering, and that’s how I stumbled upon your blog.
11:06 pm
Thanks Zack! Glad you like the blog. If you’re interested in a pretty awesome sci-fi thriller that deals with consciousness, check out this review I did of a book called Blindsight.
http://cognitivephilosophy.net/book-reviews/book-review-blindsight-by-peter-watts/
Good luck with the book. Drop me a line when it’s finished.
8:23 pm
Greg, I am a student in Prof. Symons’ class. I really enjoyed this post. I also wanted to say that this post was extremely helpful in writing my paper.
6:15 pm
Thanks Emmanuel, glad you enjoyed it!
7:15 pm
Greg I’m also a student in Prof. Symons’ class, and really got sucked in in your paper. This will help me out a lot to, however, I think this made it a lot harder to say no to mind uploading!
7:18 pm
Another thing, really recommend you the movie of “The 6th Day”
8:19 pm
Thanks Adriana, sorry for making your job harder! 🙂
9:07 pm
I would like to know what makes you think that we are the same than 10 years ago? I think it is a common assumption but for an instance lets say we are not. Then the whole argument breaks apart does not it?, also why would you say that is possible to “freeze” an state of mind in order to make the mapping possible? What I am trying to point out is probably a personal opinion in which we are never the same. There is some theory that says there is only one time the present and it is never the same.
In other comments I really appreciated the reading
1:46 am
Hi Daniel, I think your confusion revolves around the use of the word “same” and how it can be taken in two different ways. Obviously we’re not the same in a literal sense, that’s the point of my post. Our beliefs are different, our personality is different, our physical makeup is different, our memories are different; in a sense, everything about us is different. You’re right, in a certain sense, from every moment to the next we are not the same. This is exactly what I say here at the end:
That’s one way to interpret things, but it’s not very satisfying. Where does it get you to say that at 11:40pm there exists Daniel and at 11:41pm there is a completely separate being who calls himself Daniel with the same set of memories? Then at 11:42pm there is again an entirely new person who still calls himself Daniel and feels the same as these other Daniels, but is not. My point is that we need to readjust our common conceptions of what it means to be a self; when we start thinking of the self as a dynamic pattern that exists and changes over time, we can move away from old notions of a soul and of an immutable and unchangeable inner core, and start speaking more meaningfully about what it means to be or have a self.
Think about the language you have to use to even be able to have this conversation…”I” am not the same person “I” was ten years ago. You can’t escape self referential language, might as well use it in a meaningful way.
One last thing. You say the whole argument “falls apart” if we’re not the same person as we were 10 years ago. I disagree. If you’re right, it just lends MORE support to the idea of mind uploading. If you are not the same person as Daniel a second ago, a minute ago or a year ago, then the artificial Daniel after the mind uploading is also not the same. But none of it matters. There is a conscious being who feels like Daniel and acts like Daniel, and if that’s all you are, then that’s all the artificial Daniel is.
1:32 am
Greg, don’t you feel like you’re missing out on life? Spending your spare time thinking and over analyzing things our human brain will never understand sounds pretty boring to me.
I’m obviously taking philosophy because I have to, and i’m obviously reading your article because I have to. Not that I have anything against philosophers, but to me it seems like, philosophers are people that just need something to believe in and something to prove that what they’re believing is true. It’s so frustrating! I seriously don’t see the point and joy of doing this.
1:52 am
Hi Priscilla, what do you like to do in your spare time, and why do you think it’s more valuable than thinking about consciousness and ethics? Do you think philosophers spend every waking moment thinking about philosophy? We go out with friends, we go out to dinner, we go out to bars, we go see live music, we play sports, we watch movies and read books, we volunteer in our community, we argue about politics and religion, and yes, we all spend time thinking about “philosophical” things. You don’t enjoy doing philosophy. I don’t enjoy watching nascar. I don’t go posting on nascar blogs about how I think it’s all a big waste of time. I respect other people’s tastes enough to not be a jerk to them.
6:47 pm
I am just interested to find out, do you believe in ghosts/’spiritual beings’, and if so, do you think these non-physical beings could play a part in the transferal of consciousness? What if our non-physical being is in our brain, in a sense, and thereby if we emulate our brain, our non-physical being carries over to the emulation and we could achieve an extended life/immortality? Because, you have seemed to (I think) imply that we are (hard to explain) ‘us’, that we are a non-physical being… so what if mind uploading also carried on our non-physical being?
Basically, what I’m saying is that because we are essentially a non-physical being, isn’t there a great chance that we will never know whether or not the emulation is us, because the only way to find out would be to have our mind uploaded…
12:12 pm
Thank you Greg, this is such a great article and you got me totally interested in this topic in Cognitive Science.
“The two you” both sitting in chairs conscious at the same time suddenly reminded me of the time turner in Harry Potter, hahahaha… But it is different, since beta and alpha will not turn on each other because the consciousness is preserved and transferred, is that right?
Also, why is our mind “completely” shut down in our sleep?
5:57 pm
Hi Vivian, the difference between this situation and the time turners is that with a time turner, there are not two equal versions of yourself. One of the versions of you is older and has experienced more things before traveling back. So while both versions are “you”, they don’t really meet the criteria of the thought experiment I set up.
I was being a bit sloppy when I talked about sleep above. You’re right that it’s not the case that your mind is “shut down” while you sleep. But my point is that you’re not conscious during that time. And when you wake up, assuming for the moment that you don’t remember your dreams, there’s just been this block of time where your consciousness was “shut off” in a certain sense. So what I was trying to get at was that it’s not the case that a break in temporal continuity of your consciousness makes you a different person.
Thanks for commenting!
2:55 pm
Thank you for your clarification, Greg. And it remind me of the books 1987 and the Brave New World of how human memories can be completely reshaped by outer forces. We are organisms of continued change.
2:36 pm
Today I was testing if the Google had indexed my new article “To upload or not to upload – that is the question” and your webpage came up right on top. My view is that a copy, however perfect, would not be – me – if it is a snapshot copy. This copy would be my mind-child though. So I would say – yes – to the offer. I would even say yes to destructive uploading, but only if I didn’t have long to live.
However, I believe that a gradual replacement of failing brain cells and synapses is likely to result in a graceful mind transfer into a new -You-.
http://subversive-medicine.webs.com/minduploading.htm